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debate

  • pete avatar
    Democracy is broken. We can’t make democracy work at scale given current tech levels. It’s not even “the best bad idea we have so far.” It’s just broken.
    No one is qualified to lead hundreds of millions of people at the nexus of a global economy. No one is even qualified to evaluate whether someone else might do it. So we fall back to the best marketer/influencer, which is worse than many other potential options.
    #Deeptakes
    peteSA•...

    Sure, it's tuned a little toward incindiary hot take, but I stand by it empirically and as a vague, open ended bet.

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  • jordan avatar

    We have the option to see everything in your life as collaborative; we are scared to say this because we don't want to victim-blame but we're also scared of the possibilities and transcendence that opens up.  

    OK I’ve tried talking about this before and it always feels impossible, but it also feels super important, so here goes, relatively uncensored (meaning super philosophical, my apologies and hope some of you enjoy!):

    “We have the option to see everything in your life as collaborative”

    1. The nature of the universe is co-constructed / nondual: I think “experience” and “reality” are fundamentally intertwined; you can’t talk about a world out-there without a subjectivity talking about it (experiencing) and you can’t have an experiencing without a world out there (reality). In other words, subject and object (consciousness and matter) are one interpenetrated thingy. When I say “reality” I really mean “reality-experience” and when I say “experience” I really mean  “experience-reality.” Sometimes I just say “Life.”

      I mean this in a very extreme way.

      Not collapsing to the outer (materialism): This is not “there’s a pre-existing world out there, and many different pre-existing subjective views on it” which is the common way of understanding pluralism. That framing still fundamentally separates the outer world from the inner, and presumes a kind of self-existence of the outer without consciousness, which I think is basically epistemologically untenable. We simply can’t know if that’s possible, ever, because every thought- or real- experiment we do will always be known, by us, inside of a conscious experience.

      Not collapsing to the inner (idealism): This is also not “there’s no world out there, just constructs,” which I see as incoherently self-defeating: where do the constructs exist? We’re just hiding the fact that we presume constructs are objectively existing prior to that statement, and then declaring nothing inherently exists. It also doesn’t jive with out lived experience that there seem to be “things” like the laws of physics that are outside of our ability to simply construct a new meaning around. Perhaps the laws of physics are mutable, but we’d still be left with a meta-physics claim, like the one I’m making:

      The inner and outer, the consciousness and matter, fundamentally coexist as one occurrence. This is what I’m referring to as “life” in the title of this post.

    1. From this claim I think another follows that there’s a (possibly) inviolable metaphysics of correspondence between the interpretation and world-out-there, a “mirror” to the (obvious to almost all adults) correspondence between the world-out-there and interpretation: eg I can reinterpret the experience of stubbing my toe, but I can’t reinterpret the existence of the table leg I stubbed it on. The most obvious inverse correspondence is that I can use my reinterpretation to change the outer world: let’s say I consider stubbing my toe a lesson, and what I learn from that lesson is that I want to move the location of my table. Now I move my table.

      You can probably see where I’m going with this.

      If I don’t have access to the interpretation that toe-stubbing is a lesson-opportunity, maybe I’m less likely to move the table, or change my walking patterns, or whatever. (Yes there’s another failure mode in thinking the lessons are always only internal lessons, but that’s recapping the “collapsing to the inner” mentioned above, so already covered I think). Having the lesson-frame changes the way we encounter and react to adversity, even as small as toe-stubbing. Any given frame changes the way we encounter and react to all that we experience, because they’re interpenetratingly one thing.

    2. “Everything in my life is collaborative” is one of the interpretation-choices we all have; and it is causative in the same way “stubbing my toe is a lesson” is causative. I think this is a pragmatic statement of fact; here’s the value-laden one:

      Seeing everything that happens as collaborative is very good way to live, and results in greater well-being.

      It puts us in flow with what’s happening rather than resistance; it has us take self-responsibility for “what now” and keeps us close to where our actual power is (meaning making, as Frank said yesterday); all of this leads to a better experience regardless of your values and regardless of your life circumstances.

    “we are scared to say this because we don't want to victim-blame”

    This feels very un-politically-correct to talk about because people immediately try to apply it to others. They misinterpret it to mean, “If someone has a shitty experience it’s their fault.” 

    This is a mistake!

    (1) I’m not using it to talk about others.
    (2) The capacity to do something now doesn’t imply the capacity to have done something in the past.
    (3) I’m definitely not saying it’s fair.

    The statement is about everything in your life, not everyone’s life. The mistake at a philosophical level is trying to make it an “out there” proposition, instead of remembering the entanglement of inner-and-outer.

    This clarification is super important because to the extent what I’m saying is true, it’s a huge, underutilized technology in well-being improvement available to you in your life, but it remains unavailable to you if you think that using it means you have to blame other people for their circumstances. Don’t do that! Not necessary! For personal use only! (Even when I apply these ideas in coaching sessions, and we teach them in The Relateful Coaching School, it’s always first from a place of asking questions, finding attunement.)

    “but we're also scared of the possibilities and transcendence that opens up”

    The other most common block to trying on this perspective is that we’re terrified of being this powerful: 

    • What if we don’t use it responsibly? (Then you’d have the chance to see that as collaborative, taking the results as feedback)

    • What if we can’t use it well? (There’s no standard—that’s an unnecessary imposition we make up in our heads; and I don’t know if there’s an end either, so we’re always growing in capacity, if we want to) 

    • Does this mean it’s our fault if we don’t have a good experience? (no, remember that would be collapsing the outer to the inner)

    And we’re terrified at facing the reality of how deeply interconnected we are. 

    This means the “I” that I think I am really is indistinguishable from the entire world, which calls into the question the nature of that I. This is a scary thing to face, in my experience. Luckily, as far as I can tell the nature of reality-experience is holonic—transcendence always comes with including. So yes, I am much much bigger than whatever concept I make of myself, but that bigness doesn’t erase the concept or the me, it simply contextualizes it in something much grander. Which ironically, gives us a lot more room for self-expression, play, and surrendering into embracing the whole human experience with all of it’s complexity, suffering, and joy.

    #DeepTakes 

    jordanSA•...
    I super appreciate your effort at steelmanning and translating what I'm saying through ways you make sense of things. Playing with formats here and splitting into multiple comments, added after your...
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  • dara_like_sara avatar

    Dynamic between Walz and Vance. So far, I am genuinely surprised at how respectful they seem to be toward each other.

    Vance has said things like I’m sure Walz agrees with me and our democratic friends

    The energy is really good for me.

    jordanSA•...

    amen, I was basically heartened by this whole debate!

    religion
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  • cindym•...

    VP Debate

    Okay, now I am floored that Waltz won’t talk about censorship and keeps trying to change the subject with rhetoric.

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  • mitch lewis avatar

    Political Theater. I find myself bracing as I watch. Pervading sense of mistrust and cynicism.

    I am relating to the debate as political theater. If I could rank what I’m seeing on this platform it would be red arrow down, repeatedly.

    jordanSA•...

    yea, I’m much more tuned into you guys than the debate

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  • mitch lewis avatar

    Political Theater. I find myself bracing as I watch. Pervading sense of mistrust and cynicism.

    I am relating to the debate as political theater. If I could rank what I’m seeing on this platform it would be red arrow down, repeatedly.

    jordanSA•...
    I am relating to the debate as political theater. If I could rank what I’m seeing on this platform it would be red arrow down, repeatedly. We’re having a side discussion about how to build this functionality...
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  • Philip avatar

    I think this debate is.. so much better than the presidential one. More civil, dignified and substantive.

    Then again, Trump sets a pretty low bar of discourse, LOL. They’re eating the dogs..

    thehunmonkgroup•...

    These guys are totally gonna grab a beer afterwards :P

    Probably not, but yeah, I can actually listen to this debate.

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  • david avatar

    Pre VP Debate warm up. Pre VP Debate warm up. I was thinking that Trump resembles Anger from Inside Out, and in the first movie, when Anger gets fed up, he goes rogue, steals mom’s credit card and buys a bus ticket to Minnesota (Make Riley Great Again). The only problem with going back, is that back isn’t a place or time we can get to.

    And then I thought about Kamala, and her refrain We’re not going back but recognize she is talking about a different back, and the two sides don’t see back the same way. But her refusal to go back is also not so great. The Democratic party is kind of like Sadness, ready to flood us into liquidity such that no fires can start.

    This metaphor isn’t great, I’ll admit, but it does bring up a notion about lesser of two evil’s approaches. If we are only restricted to Trumps sparky forest fire, or Kamala’s rainy kumbaya that eventually leads to massive mud slides while Mickey prays for the wizard to stop to water-bearing brooms (sorry Ashville and Georgia), we could spend so much time trying to combat the other guys (you know, team evil), that we’re not really spending any time doing something better.

    Tribal allegiance, nor simple bipartisan get-along-ism isn’t going to change the fact that we need much more innovative approaches to changing our global ways. We’re not even being honest about the impacts we’re inducing.

    Dang, I was hoping this was heading somewhere inspirational. Come on Joy pull a rabbit outta that hat, and make Pizza Delicious again.

    jordanSA•...

    Oh can you

    1. add the Inside Out 2 characters into your analysis?!
    2. do the Inside Out analysis for you, re this debate
    3. do it for me.
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  • brian avatar

    What I wish they would ask.

    • What is something you admire about the other candidate?

    • What policies do they have you wish you could agree with?

    • What’s something you don’t fully agree with your President on?

    thehunmonkgroup•...
    One piece of wisdom I got from facilitator Diane Hamilton was "yes increases group cohesion, no increases group energy" – that’s a paraphrase. I think that desire for energy in the debate drives the kind of questions asked, and makes these kinds of questions, as much as I would...
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  • jordan avatar

    It's harder to type and listen than I thought. And I’m usually pretty good at having a lot of chaos in awareness

    Shera JoyCry•...

    I’m behind time on the debate… but this is fun!

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  • brianSA•...

    What I wish they would ask

    • What is something you admire about the other candidate?

    • What policies do they have you wish you could agree with?

    • What’s something you don’t fully agree with your President on?

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    4
  • david avatar

    Surprised Vance seems personable and Walz seems worried. Just on a vibe-quotient, Vance is leading strong.

    thehunmonkgroup•...

    Vance is confident and polished. I believe Walz has said in the past that debate is not his strong suit?

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  • jordanSA•...

    The VP Debate

    Hey y’all, What we’re up to tonight Tonight we’re going to have fun, test how UpTrust works with 20-30 people simultaneously using it, and perhaps gain some insight and make some connections....
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