Transcript from Adrian Grenier AMA: Earth Care Is Self-Care

A live recorded conversation on UpTrust between Jordan Myska Allen and Adrian Grenier.

Watch the recording or see the original AMA post, where the live questions came from.

I’ve Been a Boy, and Now I’m Finally Becoming a Man

[00:00:25]

Jordan: Welcome, Adrian. Happy to have you. I’m going to bring in quotes and questions and shares from the comment thread, but I wanted to start with a moment — the second time I met you. We were at a party, a bunch of us eating dinner, and the host said, I want everyone to get up and say what they’re about in the world, or something like that. And people are like, I run this company, whatever. And then — I don’t know if you remember this — you stand up and you go, I’ve been a boy, and now I’m finally becoming a man. And then you sat down. That was it. And I thought: I don’t know who that guy is, but I want to go talk to him. We’re going to have fun.

Adrian: How’s that? I love that your memories of me are so granular — the second time. That’s a good memory. My memories of you just clump together in one big cuddly love fest. Just one big bear hug.

Jordan: Thank you. Well, it’s easy — you’re easy to love, and I feel very loved by you.

Adrian: Love you too. So is that a question? Or do you want me to confirm — am I still a man, or have I fallen back?

Jordan: Did you make the transition? And what’s it like to be a man?

Adrian: Very gratefully, I did make the transition — just in the nick of time to become a father. And now that I am a father, I can’t imagine having children while still carrying on like a teenager myself. I can’t imagine being a parent as a kid — and not just being a child, but being immature in your mind. I’m really proud of the fact that I was able to find it within myself to let go of those immature indulgences and selfishness in order to be a stable example for my children, so that they can have the freedom to be kids, relying on the stable energy that I can bring to them. It’s not all about me. And I’m proud of that. So yes, I have managed to make that full transition into adulthood and have not wavered — well, I leave room to be human, of course. But for the most part I’m standing on two feet, upright, taking care of the fam.

Planting Seeds for Trees Whose Shade You May Not Enjoy

[00:03:35]

Jordan: I see it. It’s true. It’s beautiful. Do you think the essence of it is that it’s not all about me — that kind of boyishness is still self-centered?

Adrian: Yeah, I think it is. I see it as twofold. One is having that selfish aspect where you’re looking to please something within you — whether it be pleasure, or power, or acknowledgement, or comfort — versus holding space, even in discomfort, for the things that are bigger than the moment. Really having a vision for a long-term potential, even if it means this immediate moment doesn’t feel great, or it’s hard. You’re waking up early; you’re doing the things that are hard for the greater good. And you start to realize that you are not just a man: you are a family, you are a neighborhood, you’re a kingdom, and you’re living for the greater good of that whole, into the future. Planting seeds for trees who you may not enjoy the shade of.

Jordan: Very literally, for you.

Adrian: Well, yeah — very literally. And it’s not that it’s not fun, but it’s harder. And it can be a bit lonely. I used to really fear loneliness. I used to thrash around looking to satisfy that hole in myself when I felt isolated or alone — fill that void as much as I could. And now I spend a lot of time just resting into it. Knowing that even though I am mortal and my life is short — which sort of brings the imperative up: okay, I’ve got to be better now, for the sake of my children, in this moment, in this life — the things I’m doing and building are for an infinite game and a longer time horizon. It makes me have a sense of being connected to the infinite, to the timelessness — knowing that the things I’m doing are part of a long conversation throughout time, and throughout lineage, and throughout history.

You Start to Look for Something Bigger Than Yourself

[00:06:43]

Jordan: Amen. So we got a comment, basically: okay, you’re a Hollywood superstar. You could keep going — all these offers, you could just ride that wave. All kinds of offers and temptations and seduction. And for some reason, you didn’t. What was the catalyst that made you realize that you needed to become a man?

Adrian: Well, there’s so much media, so many narratives, seducing you towards this grandiosity. I was literally conditioned by rock stars, by artists, to live in the moment, to burn hot — better to burn out than fade away. All these stories that I think are maybe an artist communicating a feeling or an idea — but it wasn’t a spiritual angle. It’s creative. It’s hot and bothered. It’s chaotic. It’s angsty. And I very much indulged that, and loved the idea of being that tortured artist — being a creative, touching the chaos, touching the discomfort and the traumas, in order to pull out something creative and cool and shock people a bit. And that got me very far in the business as an actor: willing to do things, or push the edge or the boundaries, or exploit myself, or indulge a sensual something.

And then the thing that got me on the straight and narrow is pretty vanilla, plain and obvious: it’s a spiritual thing. You start to look for something bigger than yourself. You look towards God — and this isn’t necessarily a religious lecture here, but whatever God is to you. And that’s what I had to find out: when I’m oriented towards my purpose on this planet, is it towards something divine and beautiful and God-like, spiritual? Or am I peering into the navel — into my own reflection?

Jordan: Right. And I framed you a little bit as having an integral spiritual journey. It’s this aspect of aiming towards something divine, something much bigger than yourself — and doing it in a bunch of ways: an actual spiritual practice, and deep psychological work, and showing up in sustainability, building a farm, literally getting your hands dirty. There’s something I admire and find beautiful about that. You’re like, I’m going to hit it on all fronts. You’re not just like, oh yeah, I need to grow up and maybe have a little bit better perspective. You’re like, no, I need to actually confront my shit.

Adrian: Yeah. Well, you know, one of the biggest revelations I had was not that there is a God, but that women are a direct line to source consciousness — to God itself. That women are the oracles, that they are the messengers, if you will.

When I was living life for myself — my indulgences, my career, whatever that is — I wasn’t in right relationship to the women in my life. And it wasn’t until I fell in love, and the woman who’s now my wife, Jordan, cued me into the fact that I had some major work to do — some fixing to do — that I started to do the hardest part of the work, in order to win the heart of my love. She sort of inspired me to be a better man. She made me want to be a better man. And when I finally, after a couple years of heavy lifting and doing some deep soul work, was able to reapproach her and say, I think I’ve got something that might vaguely emulate that thing, but I’m still working on it — would you give me a shot? — after we talked, she confirmed that I was worth keeping around. Because you never stop the work, right? But I was at a level, or a stage, where she’d have me. And ever since, we’ve been doing the work together. And now doing it through children is a whole other level of spiritual uplift.

Shame Becomes Indulgent

[00:12:27]

Jordan: Amen. I always love talking with you about that. And one thing I’m noticing — I want to get to other questions, but I love getting so personal — is that you don’t seem to shame yourself for being imperfect, in a way that I think is really powerful and unique.

Adrian: Yeah. And I don’t think I’m doing it to avoid the discomfort of knowing what a rascal I’ve been. Full sinner, you know what I mean? Straight up: abusive, selfish, hurtful, destructive — we could get into it. And I think it’s important to fully recognize the truth of that reality — the things that you’ve done, the people that you’ve hurt — in order to truly make amends. You have to really fully own that thing. But then, to stay there and define yourself in that absolute static state of being — that doesn’t allow for the creative potential of growing into a new version of yourself. It becomes indulgent if you’re flogging yourself, or sitting in shame.

So: can you fully integrate that shadow, that dark part of yourself, so that it becomes an integral part of who you are? It’s a catalyst. It’s an energetic momentum — an inertia forward into growth. I continuously try to tap back into the memory, and the muscle memory, and the awareness of that part of myself. It’s still very alive. It’s still real. But without doing it out of shame or self-hatred, because that keeps me from being the best I can be in this moment. It’s almost like an intuition — all that self-awareness and learning settles into the intuition layer of yourself. Because you could easily fall back into that decision-making if that intuition isn’t online. So you have to keep it alive and keep it present, while it becomes less and less acutely defining of yourself in the moment, or your actions. It’s still there, vaguely helping guide you away from those previous decision patterns.

Jordan: A cool insight just came to me — these things came together. It’s like: oh, right, of course. Shaming yourself is being self-indulgent. And actually using that awareness to build the intuition is in service of this higher purpose — to contribute to your family and to the world around you.

Adrian: Well, we have a whole world to build. We have a whole future to create. It ain’t over, right? It’s almost like you’re still holding on, not wanting to let go of that — and now, instead of the indulgence of it, you’re indulging it from a different angle. I was talking about this with my wife today. Not that I wanted to talk about the Epstein files — but as untoward and terrible and horrible as all of that is, I see the media… you know, I’ve studied media. I made a movie about it, Teenage Paparazzo — I don’t know if you’ve seen that; you should check it out. It becomes this study on gossip and media, and the hall of mirrors — which is all of us now, especially with our phones. So you have these terrible humans who are actively indulging in that lifestyle — let’s not even talk about how terrible it is. But then you have the media sphere, which is taking all of the content that came out of the Epstein files, and now they’re using it to indulge it from a different angle. And I don’t know if it’s helpful. It seems like it’s just exploitative in a different way. It’s like a gossip rag — but now it’s our mainstream media.

Would Entourage Still Get Made Today?

[00:17:39]

Jordan: Yeah, totally. Man, so many directions. Okay, I want to bring in some comments.

[Chat comment:] The notion of shame as indulgent is fascinating.

Jordan: I like that one. There’s also a question — this is kind of related to this maturing:

[Chat question:] Do you think Entourage would still get made today?

Adrian: I’ve thought about it, because there are so many reboots these days — and frankly, I could use the paycheck. So I’ve thought: how do we crack the code on the reboot? Because obviously it would be difficult to make post Me Too and all this stuff. It’s certainly possible. I have my ideas on how it would be remade. I think there would have to be some supernatural elements that come into it — one supernatural event that we’d expect the audience to accept in order for the whole thing to make sense. Like: they go back in time, and you have to convince them to live better lives in order to save the future. I don’t know. Something fun.

Jordan: It’s almost like a parable — the show’s actually about making amends, but via this—

Adrian: Like, I imagine they go into a supernatural movie theater to watch a premiere that has some artifact that makes it supernatural. And then they end up falling into a woke future, and they have to live in the woke future somehow.

Jordan: So you’re like: probably it wouldn’t get made again today. And it’s cultural progress, but not in the way that most people would think — like, Me Too, not so good. You’re like: no, because it was promoting a set of values that were not high on integrity.

Adrian: But look, there’s such a thing as comedy, and I think we lost our humor for a little while there. And I don’t personally—

Jordan: All I can think of when you say that is politically incorrect jokes. And I’m like, oh God.

Adrian: But it’s like a guilty pleasure, where we get to see all the things play out, and hear all the things said, that we would hope that we could say. But there comes a point when the slapstick or the comedy becomes hurtful, and I don’t know what that line is. It’s not up for me to say.

Jordan: I think, in a funny way, you’re kind of a specialist though — not with comedy so much, but with the shadow. You want to go as close to the line as you can without crossing over it, and then your wife kind of keeps you in check, and there’s this kind of beautiful dance. I don’t know if that’s true for you. How do you make sense of that? You can ignore the question.

Adrian: No — I don’t know. I just find that I don’t want to lose my humor. But at the same time, I personally refrain from potty jokes or locker-room talk, just because it’s such a slippery slope, and I have a hard time finding that line. And in today’s age, you keep crossing the line, crossing the line, because it’s getting you more clicks — it’s more sensational. And we’ve lost the balancing act between sophisticated comedy that uplifts and challenges the intellect, and the stuff that just keeps you in a state of shock and awe.

Jordan: I guess the comedy that has integrity for me to do is where the stabbing goes both ways. So — UpTrust for a long time had one woman on staff, and now we have zero. I mean, my sister’s being super helpful, but she’s not full-time right now. So making jokes that point out how something is not quite right in tech culture, or in our culture, that we can’t have an equal balance of women — that implicates me and my team. I’m the brunt of the joke. And then I can make an inappropriate joke, as long as I’m getting cut by it too.

Adrian: And are you talking about your company culture, in terms of the jokes you guys make amongst each other?

Jordan: The jokes that I feel have integrity — that are maybe on the line or something. This is weird territory to go in. I don’t know if—

Adrian: Welcome to our lives. The big bear hug of love and awkwardness.

Jordan: Yes. Yes, that’s true.

Adrian: I love that. I mean, I really do appreciate it. Because even if it’s not funny, comedy is a great way to challenge the status quo and push the discomfort of things. I like to go to those edges too, but I do it more philosophically — like, oh, why wouldn’t this be okay in a society? Just having those abstract—

Jordan: What if the moon landing was faked? I mean.

Adrian: You know? All this stuff keeps my mind fresh. It’s when the rubber meets the road — when thoughts become actions, and then become patterns that you’ve committed to. Because we can indulge ideas and have conversations, and it’s low risk when it’s in the abstract. So I reserve the right — and I think we all should enjoy and indulge the opportunity — to have conversations, to challenge each other, to make fun, to explore ideas, to use UpTrust to have important debate and conversations. That’s all fine and good. It’s when it goes into the realm of now we’re actually building a community, or a cult, around this idea — then you might want to consider the validity of it.

Earth Care Is Self-Care

[00:24:54]

Jordan: Yeah. Well said. Again, I really love touching on these personal psychological layers — it’s so intimate, and it’s also so much a part of building a healthier future, and it’s something that we love connecting on. But let’s dive into some of these things about sustainability. We’ve got a question here. I didn’t even know this, by the way — you’re a UN Environment Goodwill Ambassador and co-founder of Lonely Whale, according to Wikipedia and according to this comment. I’m like: that’s sick. That’s really cool.

[Chat question:] What inspired you, and what advice do you have for folks wanting to make environmentally conscious changes in their everyday life?

Adrian: Yeah, so I’ve been doing environmental work for many, many years, and I’m always updating and rethinking my approach to the work. One thing that I’ve become disillusioned about in nonprofit work is that it becomes ineffectual at a certain point, because suddenly you’re entrenched in the organization and having to raise money to pay for overhead. A lot of the complaints people have is like, oh, 90% of the money goes to overhead and then 10% goes to the work. I don’t think that’s inherently a bad thing — up until a point. So I always want to refresh, or rebrand, or rethink what it is I’m doing and why. Because there’s also an ego to the things you build, and you don’t want it to die — even though on some level you recognize that you’re not really making the change you want, or think you should.

So I’ll just confess: the UN ambassadorship is amazing — was amazing. It’s a great title. It has a fantastic ring of legitimacy to it. But I have to say, I don’t know how long I was entitled to the title. I continue to do the work — I continue to do work in sustainability and environmental stuff. But as far as being a UN ambassador, I guess I have to clock in at some point, which I haven’t. I haven’t given a speech there in a number of years. I mean, they haven’t approached me and said, Hey man, you’re only allowed to use the title for one year. ’Cause it’s always president, right? Even after they leave office.

Jordan: Yeah.

Adrian: So: once a UN ambassador, always a UN ambassador.

Jordan: I don’t see why not. Yes — former, former ambassador.

Adrian: I don’t know if I answered the question. But I guess I would say to anybody who’s looking to do environmental stuff: it’s the type of thing where you’ve just got to get your hands dirty. Literally get in there. There’s no list of dues that you can check off — you know, ten Hail Marys and you go to heaven. For me at least, it’s a relationship to the earth. It’s a relationship to how you consume things. It’s a relationship to your very thoughts, and where you direct them, and how you live. And I always say: earth care is self-care. And then also take care of yourself, because we need your energy to be present and working at its best capacity for the cause throughout your long, long life. So don’t burn yourself out. Don’t take the weight of the world on your shoulders and get anxious and have environmental despair. We need your light and fluffy creative optimism working out in the world.

And in terms of specific solutions — that’s a regional, local thing, as far as I’m concerned. A lot of these big sweeping absolute carbon-reduction plans and all that, I tend to find to be nice-sounding. But because of the complexity of nature itself, there’s not a one-size-fits-all. Nature really needs micro-regional, hyperlocal solutions addressing the complexity of certain regions, or certain microclimates, or certain areas, or certain communities. And that’s particularly why I decided that I wanted to do a micro-community on land, with a farm and an environmental-stewardship ethos and lifestyle built in — because it was hyperlocal, and it addressed what our needs are regionally, and for our own wellbeing and betterment. Without having to save the earth, heal the world. That’s such a big, grandiose — again—

Jordan: Self-indulgent.

Working with the Soil, You Realize Your Place Real Quick

[00:30:35]

Adrian: Self-indulgent. I’ve given speeches at the UN and other big notable podiums and platforms where I call these environmentalists out. There seems to be this arrogance to the cause, where people think they’re going to save the world — and then they cry, or they glue themselves to things when people don’t do what they say. It’s pretty unhinged. The environmental work that I’ve come to realize is much more humble. When you’re working with the earth, when you’re working with the soil, when you’re working with natural systems, you realize your place real quick. You’re like: whoa. I am just simply attempting to understand how the earth works in its natural systems, and work in harmony with it — and hopefully, if I’m lucky, cultivate it so that it has abundance, so that it can thrive. Let alone save it.

Jordan: Right. There’s a kind of paradox that you’re speaking to: the more personal you get about your relationship with the earth, the more humble you get. And the more impersonal and grandiose — the more egotistical.

Adrian: Yeah.

Jordan: And I’ll do a quick shout-out: you do courses on permaculture. So if people are around in Texas and they want to learn stuff, they can get their hands dirty with you.

Adrian: Yeah, we’ve been starting to offer in-person courses and classes, and our nonprofit mission is to bring people closer to the earth. You can certainly take one of our courses — we do one a quarter. I think we’re going to do another one in April. So yeah — check us out, all that good stuff.

Jordan: Yeah, we’ll put a link in the thread somewhere. But somebody looked it up and said:

[Chat comment:] You’re still listed on the UN page, so keep using the title.

Adrian: Nice. I can get my badge.

Jordan: You can get your badge. Show up to the UN and be like, Hey — let’s talk Bitcoin.

Stores of Value Beyond the Dollar

[00:33:03]

Adrian: Are we hodl? Are we hodl?

Jordan: We got some maximalists in the crowd?

Adrian: Everybody — are we hodl?

Jordan: We are. I mean, I guess now is an intense time to talk Bitcoin, but I’m like: so, accumulation phase, right?

Adrian: Are we buying? Yeah. It’s uncomfortable. It’s very uncomfortable right now.

Jordan: You’ve been into it for years now, and you’ve done the full scam-shitcoin cycle, and you’re still full Bitcoin, right? I mean, like me — I’m only speaking from experience. I’ve been scammed. I’ve been left with a bag of shit.

Adrian: Yeah. But then, you know, you become a maxi, and it has its own religiosity unto itself. And right now I’m starting to lose my religion. I’m losing faith.

Jordan: Oh no. Oh no.

Adrian: What’s going on? I mean — look, the reality is our economic system was invented, right? It was created, and it seems to be challenged right in this moment. Think back to when we got off the gold standard, onto the dollar standard. That was within memory, relatively — somebody alive was there at the time, I’d imagine. What was it, 1960-something?

Jordan: Yeah, for sure — our parents were alive.

Adrian: Right. So there was volatility there, and that sort of thing. So I think that Bitcoin is a great option. I believe in the concept of digital gold — of being unbounded by physical space or time, being sovereign, and totally self-custody. But that’s scary shit too.

Jordan: Scary shit too.

Adrian: I want the nanny central banks to take care of me, and FDIC to bail me out if things don’t work out — I want all that stuff. But at the same time, I don’t think we’re going to get to the next phase in our economy and our culture unless we take some risks and get out of this mess. Because the current system doesn’t seem to be working out very well either.

Jordan: Yeah, totally. It’s interesting, because there’s a quality in that maturation process of wanting to be more sovereign — like you said, self-custody. And you have your land, you’re growing your own food, you’re kind of set up. Keep going.

Adrian: No, wait — so, Bitcoin is a store of value. And it’s not the only store of value, right? You have money in the bank, sure. But then maybe you diversify in gold and silver, blah blah blah. Maybe you have some mutual funds. Maybe you buy a house. Maybe you own some rare Garbage Pail Kids, or baseball cards, or your grandmother’s china. But then you get into the things that really are a direct source of wealth for the human being — which is food. Good, wholesome, organic, nutrient-dense food. So you can store food. Then you store seeds, for future crops. You could store water, which is supposedly going to be the next—

Jordan: Commodity.

Adrian: Oil, yeah — the next commodity that’s going to be really scarce and hard to find. Energy — you know, battery storage. Good times. And a sense of wellbeing with community — that’s something you can create and store. I really think, in many ways, the community that we’re building here is a big battery that can store all of these things that are vital to human flourishing. And we can look at money as a tool of exchange — but ultimately, that’s where the real wealth is. If you can have land, community, peace on it, peace in yourself — meditate, and store some of that up. So: think of stores of value beyond the dollar, or beyond money, as a principle.

I Thought I Was Going to Be a Farmer Guy

[00:38:04]

Jordan: Yeah — I love that principle. I love that holistic vision. It’s so true: all the Bitcoin in the world can’t get you that community, and that meaning, and that purpose. And that shift that you made, to be like: oh, this woman that I love — I’m not actually man enough for her yet, and I need to go do some work. In your vision — you’ve been at this vision for this land and this community for years — what were some of the biggest surprises in making that dream, that sustainability dream, hit and touch reality?

Adrian: Well, I guess I had this fantasy that I was going to be like a farmer guy — that I was going to gain all these primitive skills, and I was going to learn how to sheetrock, and build foundations, and do the electric, and also harvest, and do animal husbandry, and do all the things which, growing up in New York, I was the farthest thing from knowing how to do. And I’ve learned a lot of that, to some degree — I’m proud of myself for at least trying it out, on some minute level. But what I realized is that ultimately there’s a skillset that I have, and it’s not farming. It really is within the hearts-and-minds, communications realm. For better or for worse, I’m in entertainment for a reason. So now I’m back to recognizing that my main contribution and skillset is building the community, and the story of this thing, to help bring human energy into the system. So really, it’s not that I’m building healthy natural ecosystems — I’m really building natural cultural ecosystems, and community ecosystems. And that’s a lot of fun, and also important.

Because it’s not just about the food, and the stacking functions of the different elements so that you can have an abundant crop that year. It’s also about the humans that come and are participating in that — the family structure, the governance. All of that is just as important, because you need a village for these things to make sense economically, and for the things that we crave as humans to be met and fulfilled. Because we’re so isolated and fragmented as a culture, we don’t even know how to be in close relation to one another. We send our parents off to homes. We have to go it alone and do it by ourselves. We have these houses that are divided by fence lines. So: how do you actually bring back the thing that really makes human beings thrive? It’s not the competition. It’s not that we’re at odds with one another. It’s that we know how to collaborate — we actually do better when we’re in partnership, and in tribe, with one another.

Jordan: Right. This is one of the themes of Hey wait, can we do better? — we’re looking at coordination, and reality, and stuff. I think you’re on the frontier, exploring: okay, the modern world really fucked up how to do community, basically. And one thing I think you’re on the frontier of — I’ve mentioned this to you before — is that you’re like: there are some things that are really good about being local, and being together, and being on land — this more ancient way of doing things. But you’re also like: there are new governance structures, and there are new forms of money, and there’s a lot of willingness to lean in. You’re not just a traditionalist. You’re like: there’s a lot of value and goodness there, and there are also a lot of new things that we’re trying to lean into. And you’re asking: how do I do that mix?

Adrian: Yeah, for certain. We’re not trying to go backwards in time. One of my favorite quotes is: if you want to go fast, go alone; if you want to go far, go together. I think we’ve done the alone thing. We went fast — a lot of technological advances — and it was sort of the cult of the individual, rugged individuality, stuff like that. But how do we now rebuild a tribal sense of wellbeing that allows us to have a deeper, richer connection to each other, ourselves, the earth, and spirit — so that we can have latitude in our experience, as opposed to just scampering up the ladder?

We Need You Here, Tilling This Land

[00:43:33]

Jordan: Yeah. So that makes me want to talk about politics and religion. This tribal quality is both something we need and are sorely missing, and totally fucking psychotic in the modern world. What do you do when there are people you love — maybe in a text thread or something — and suddenly it starts getting vicious, and they don’t like your politics?

Adrian: Are you asking me what I do when I lose all my friends because they don’t like my politics?

Jordan: How do you handle that? What do you do? And how do you organize a community when that shit’s happening in the world?

Adrian: You gaslight them, and blame them for not knowing what the fuck you’re talking about.

It’s tough. I mean, a lot of people are very sensitive these days. They take it very personally. They feel scared, and everything feels so dire and absolute. And I don’t know — maybe I’m missing something. But I have a hunch that there’s a lot of manipulation, a lot of media rhetoric, making us think we’re all going to die, or there’s something that’s going to happen that we need to worry about. I think it’s important to be mindful and aware, on some level, of the global realities. But I do live my life very, very local. I stay in this moment, and I try to affect change in the things where I know I can actually make headway. And again, back to the spiritual thing, because it does connect into it: I’m living this moment, I’m making decisions in this moment — not for change out in the political sphere this quarter, or this election cycle. The things I’m doing are creating a patterning, a psychological rhythm, that will only see effect in a decade — or, you know, I’ll be long gone. So you really have to keep a spiritual eye on the future that is beyond this immediate moment.

And I find — and it breaks my heart, and again, I could be wrong, okay? Maybe I’m not seeing something; please tell me if I’m missing the script. But I see so many young, intelligent people, full of energy, wasting it out in the streets. And perhaps there’s something so dire that they’re protecting us from that I’m not seeing. But all that energy could be — when I look at what we’re building here, to just take care of a piece of earth so that we can eat in ways that our food systems tell us isn’t possible: we need you here, tilling this land, making sure that the systems of agriculture work on a hyperlocal level. And when you stop off at Burger King and grab yourself a quick bite on your way to the protest — it breaks my heart. Because I feel like your energy has been hijacked by something that is destructive and not constructive. And it feels so dire and immediate — but I guess I just don’t see that that’s the best and highest use of your time and energy.

Jordan: Right, right. It’s a theme that I’ve been hearing throughout the conversations today: these ideologies, these kind of self-organizing structures, that perpetuate and destroy rather than build. And all this intelligence and capacity could be aiming towards really building something beautiful and good, instead of trying to oppose something, or tear something down.

Are You Really Outside the System?

[00:48:30]

Adrian: But don’t destroy the thing — replace it with a better system. Or, what’s that saying?

Jordan: Yeah — I know what you’re saying, but I can’t remember it.

Adrian: Like when I see these autonomous zones that are created — I mean, it’s interesting to me. In many ways, I’m building an autonomous zone. We are self-governed. We are creating our own rules of engagement with each other and community. We’re taking those conversations about who we are, what we are, why we’re engaged in certain behaviors over others, how we all work together functionally, how we work through conflict — all that stuff is something that we are working on actively, so that we can be a sovereign whole unit. Like an island of cohesion. So I get the idea of being sovereign — not taking orders from corrupt governments. And I’m into the whole sovereign currencies thing — Bitcoin, for example. But when you set up this autonomous zone with makeshift barricades and tents that you buy from—

Jordan: Walmart.

Adrian: Walmart, whatever — I mean, where’s the food coming from? Are you really outside the system, or are you just a corruption within the system itself? I just don’t know if that’s the kind of sovereign solution that I would propose as a way to replace the existing system.

Jordan: There’s a contradiction in it. It’s like the Jenga block trying to knock out the lower layers of the tower.

Adrian: I don’t get the analogy, but yeah.

Jordan: Weird analogy. What I’m hearing you say is: it’s like, oh yeah, we’re going to build this autonomous zone — but then, wait: everything that was required in order to survive day to day in that autonomous zone was built by the system that the people doing it are criticizing and trying to overturn.

Adrian: It’s not a reinvention — you’re just isolating yourself, and then just screaming into the void. And I don’t know how well it’s been thought through. I mean, maybe there are people who have been thinking through these things, and they’re like: No, this is the way to do it, man. Get a bunch of garbage cans and some couches, and put it here, and block out the outside system. I don’t know. There are a lot of interesting intentional communities and stuff that I find curious, and worth taking a look at.

We were just in Denmark — we went to Christiania. Do you know Christiania? In Copenhagen?

Jordan: No — I’ve heard of it. I’ve heard of it, yes.

Adrian: So it was like an old military barracks, and these old hippies started squatting there. And at a certain point they took over — it’s just right in the middle of the city — and they declared themselves sovereign, autonomous. They’re like, we’re outside the system. And they were sort of tapping into electricity, and at certain points they had to basically bring their garbage out and get the city to deal with it. So they’re sovereign — except not entirely. Anyway — half the city’s supportive of what they’re doing; half the city’s telling the government, go in there and just evict them, do something. They’ve been there for 50 years, or like a long time. And it’s a cool little city where there are no laws, or no rules, so there’s a lot of bohemian, artsy, cool stuff happening. But they recently just made a deal with the city to buy it outright. So now the people within the community own it. But in the deal they made, they had to give up a certain amount of the land to these high-rises. Which, at the end of the day — all that effort and work, and ultimately they’ve just gotten somehow sucked back into the system.

Jordan: Right.

Adrian: So: are you really, truly outside the system? Or can you just work within the system, but nudge it forward?

Jordan: And even — is such a sovereignty a thing? Does it exist at all? Has it ever?

Adrian: We’re all emergent. We’re emergent from each other; we’re emergent from the thing before us. It’s like we were just talking about before: transcend and include. The idea of growth, or evolution, has to always recognize that you are still an integral part of the previous thing. So you have to leave room for it. Like: as you’re fighting the fascists, you are the fascist. It’s like — oh wait, I have to leave room for that part of myself. And it’s complicated.

Jordan: Yeah. That white dot in the black of the yin-yang.

Adrian: Mm-hmm.

Seeking Divinity Through Land Stewardship

[00:55:08]

Jordan: We could keep going, man. There are so many good topics that we could dive much deeper into. We didn’t even get to touch on any real good conspiracy theories, or information ecology. But we’re going to wrap up here in the next minute or so. Closing thoughts, feelings, reflections?

Adrian: I want to talk about information ecology.

Jordan: I know, right? And church — I want to talk about your, I don’t know what to call it, church of the land. The spiritual community you’re cultivating.

Adrian: Yeah. I mean, it’s like a third rail — you say spiritual church and people get triggered, and I don’t quite get it. But we are seeking divinity through land stewardship. When we take care of and steward the earth that God created, you see reflections of his majesty. You see the design wisdom built within it. Only a highly intelligent, evolved spiritual being could have manifested something so dynamic and beautiful and gorgeous and fruitful and amazing. So without being able to know God, we can know the work — which humbles us into looking and seeing reflections of his majesty and divinity. Or hers. Or his, through her.

Jordan: Yeah. Amen. What a beautiful note to end out on. That’s the other thing — I was like, oh man, there’s so much. But that’s okay: we’ll have to do another. Woo — well done. Thank you so much, Adrian.

Show Notes & References

Films & Television

Entourage — HBO (2004–2011). The series that made Grenier famous as Vincent Chase, discussed here in the context of whether it could be made today.

Teenage Paparazzo — directed by Adrian Grenier (HBO, 2010). Grenier’s documentary study of gossip, celebrity, and media — the hall of mirrors he references when discussing the Epstein files coverage.

People

Adrian Grenier — Actor (Entourage), filmmaker, ocean advocate, and regenerative land steward. Host of this AMA.

Organizations & Places

Lonely Whale — ocean-health nonprofit co-founded by Grenier (with producer Lucy Sumner) in 2015, known for the campaign against plastic straws.

UN Environment Programme Goodwill Ambassador — Grenier was appointed on World Environment Day, June 2017. As the chat noted during the AMA, UNEP still lists him.

Earth Speed — Grenier’s land-stewardship community and education platform outside Austin, Texas, a lifestyle in the cadence of nature. Likely the home of the quarterly in-person permaculture courses mentioned in the conversation; Grenier’s regenerative property in Bastrop is called Kintsugi Ranch, though he does not name it here.

Freetown Christiania — self-declared autonomous district in Copenhagen, Denmark, founded in 1971 by squatters in a former military barracks. After decades of contested status, residents struck agreements with the Danish state to purchase the land, ceding part of it for new housing — the arc Adrian describes.

Key Concepts & References

Better to burn out than to fade away — Neil Young, My My, Hey Hey (Out of the Blue) (1979). The rock-star conditioning Adrian says he was raised on.

Infinite game — James P. Carse, Finite and Infinite Games (1986); popularized by Simon Sinek’s The Infinite Game (2019). Adrian’s frame for building for an infinite game and a longer time horizon.

Transcend and include — Ken Wilber’s Integral Theory shorthand for healthy development: each new stage must incorporate, not repudiate, what came before. Adrian applies it to politics: as you’re fighting the fascists, you are the fascist.

Planting trees whose shade you may not enjoy — echoes the proverb a society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit, commonly cited as Greek; exact origin unknown.

Hodl — Bitcoin slang for holding through volatility; originated as a typo (I AM HODLING) in a 2013 Bitcointalk forum post, later backronymed to hold on for dear life.

The gold standard — the United States ended dollar–gold convertibility in August 1971 (the Nixon shock); Adrian recalls it as 1960-something.

If you want to go fast, go alone; if you want to go far, go together — widely cited as an African proverb; exact origin unknown.

Stacking functions — permaculture design principle: each element in a system should serve multiple purposes.

UpTrust is a trust infrastructure platform for the internet. Find it at uptrusting.com.