Transcript from John Mackey AMA: Love Everyone All the Time, No Exceptions

A live recorded conversation on UpTrust between Jordan Myska Allen and John Mackey, co-founder of Whole Foods Market and Love.life.

Watch the recording or see the original AMA post, where the live questions came from.

It’s Not a Book You Can Just Casually Read

[00:00:00]

Jordan Myska Allen: I think we’re live. So it’s my pleasure to introduce you. I think you’re well known as the co-founder of Whole Foods, CEO for 44 years, and now the co-founder of Love.life, which is this awesome mix of medicine, nutrition, fitness, pickleball, a cafe — just an all-good living center. And for me, I love all the conscious capitalism, all of that. But more than that, I’m really excited to dive into spirituality and A Course in Miracles, because I think it’s been one of the biggest influences in my life. And we’ll talk about even what my life is. So let’s start with: how do you see A Course in Miracles? How would you describe it?

John Mackey: I believe A Course in Miracles is a channeling from Jesus to help us to awaken to who we really are and to go back into the unity with God. I think that’s what it is. And you have to study the Course — it’s not a book that you can just casually read. There’s so much depth to it, and its metaphysics are particularly difficult for many people to accept. I know that when I first started reading it, it made me angry. It’s a non-dualistic system of oneness. It very much claims that we’re dreaming. We dream at night, but we think when we awaken, we awaken to reality. And the Course is very clear that no, you’re not awakening to reality — you’re awakening to another dream.

The Course’s purpose is to help us through forgiveness. Forgiveness of the world, forgiveness of our dream, forgiveness of everyone in the world, and forgiveness of ourselves — that’s the path to removing the blocks to who we really are, which is love. And love is the essence of everything. The only thing that’s real is love. Everything else is simply a dream, an illusion. And that’s really hard for most people to want to accept.

The Course is also clear that you really don’t try to change anyone else, because it’s all one. It’s all about changing your own mind, your own thought system, and practicing forgiveness — loving everyone all the time, no exceptions. That’s the path I’m on. I’ve been on it for quite a while, but as I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten deeper into it, particularly the last couple of years.

Jordan: Thank you. I want to dive into all of it, the metaphysics. But one of the things I think is so helpful about having these kinds of conversations is not that we want to change anyone’s mind — it’s for people who want to explore and consider these ideas, to help ground them in everyday life. It’s all there in the text, in this book, but sometimes it can be really confusing what’s being said and how to apply it to everyday life. I think that’s one thing that’s so cool about you and your interest. You’ve been into this longer than I’ve been alive.

John: That just shows you what a slow learner I am.

You Are in a Dream. God Would Never Create a World Like This

[00:03:47]

Jordan: Let’s start with what got you into it. I know a little bit of the story, and it kind of has to do with the problem of evil.

John: Yeah — it’ll take me a couple of minutes to recap it. I was a born-again Christian when I was 18, and that lasted a couple of years, until I was about 20. I got really into it. I was in a group called the Navigators — evangelical Christianity. But I was always bothered by the problem of evil. The problem of evil is: if God’s all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, how could God create a universe, a world, where there’s so much pain and suffering? It just never made any sense. And since I couldn’t answer that question to my satisfaction, I became an atheist for a while. For a few years I was an atheist and just thought, that’s ridiculous — there can’t be a God, because God would be either not all-powerful, or not all-loving, or fundamentally just not good, because there’s just so much pain and suffering.

And then I did MDMA when it was still legal, back in 1984. I was doing that with a group, and that was really an awakening for me — back into the realization of the fundamental thing Christianity is supposed to be about, which is forgiveness and love. I just saw, without a doubt, that love is the most important thing in life. When we’re on our deathbed someday, we won’t be thinking, I wish I’d made more money, I wish I’d worked harder. We might have some regrets, but the biggest regret we’ll have will be: I just wish I’d loved more. I wish I’d told my mother how I really felt about her before she passed. I wish my kids had known how much I really love them. It’ll be about relationships, and it’ll be about love. That’s what I think we all experience as we near death.

So I got that reawakening to love, and pretty soon I was also doing breathwork — the Stanislav Grof Holotropic Breathwork, which was pretty intense. Those are three-hour sessions or longer. That was helping me get some spiritual insights, particularly about guilt and suffering — the stuff we bottle up inside of ourselves. Holotropic Breathwork is a good way to release some of that. I still do breathwork, but it’s a gentler version today than what I used to do.

So I’m hanging out, doing MDMA, doing breathwork, doing meditation — I’m sort of with this, not really a cult or anything, just friends I’m doing this with. And one of my friends came up to me one day and he says, You know, John, I think you’d really find this book interesting. And I said, Well, what is it? He says, It’s called A Course in Miracles. I said, That’s interesting — what’s it about? He says, Well, it’s this channeling from Jesus. And that of course caused me to roll my eyes — yeah, yeah, right, sure. And he said, Listen, you should just take a look at it. Try to have an open mind.

So I took the book home, and I didn’t have an open mind. I had a very closed, judgmental mind. I’d already been through this Christianity thing, and I’d decided there was no solution to this problem of evil. So I went in with an attitude of: I’m going to look at it, then I’m going to go back and tell Curtis why this book’s terrible and why he shouldn’t be studying it.

So I’m reading it, and pretty early on in the text — it’s got a lot of Christian language; it’s not PC today in terms of using the male gender a lot — but I can see right away: wow, there’s a lot of depth to this. This is interesting. And then I came across a passage that just blew me away. The passage basically addressed the problem of evil, and it says something like this: Oh, my brother. Lifetime after lifetime after lifetime, hundreds of lifetimes, you have been born, you have lived, and you have died, and you have cursed God for all the problems that you see in the world. And you are so angry at God. But my brother, I tell you, God doesn’t even know about this. You are in a dream. This isn’t real. God would never create a world like this. You are in a dream, and I’m here to help you wake up to who you really are — which is a pure being of light and love that’s one with the Creator. And you’re just asleep.

I remember when I read that, it just rang so true to me. I got up and I ran in circles around my house, I was so excited about it. Yes — I don’t have to be angry at God any longer. This is my dream. I’m creating it. And then the Course gets deeper into what that means, et cetera. But that was when I became a Course student, and I’ve really been studying it ever since — sometimes waxing more, sometimes waning more. Right now I’m really into it again. I’ve taken my Course studies to another level, partly because I read this book that I know you’ve read as well, called The Disappearance of the Universe, and it helped me see a few things about the Course, and understand a few things deeper and clearer than I’d been able to on my own self-study. So now I’m back into it. I never left it, but I’m now really into it, and I’m just getting super serious about it all again.

Love’s the Only Thing That Matters. I’m Never Going to Forget It Again

[00:09:35]

Jordan: Do you have a sense of what changed a few years ago? Was it The Disappearance of the Universe that kicked you back into it?

John: That accelerated it, but I was getting back into it anyway. I’d been really busy. I think partly, retiring from Whole Foods created that space for me. For so many years I was building a business. I’d do my meditation in the morning and study the Course, but I was much more wrapped up in the world. And I would say that when you get really wrapped up in the world, you’re sort of saying the dream is real. Even though you can intellectually say, yeah, it’s just a dream, I don’t think it’s really real — I wasn’t acting that way. I was acting like it was very real, devoting my life energy to trying to make the world a better place and make this dream be a happier dream.

As I retired and began to take stock of things, I also did guided spiritual journeys — a couple of those, combinations of psilocybin, MDMA, and breathwork. Five-day retreats, one-on-one with a therapist. Those really reawakened me to this path, and I started studying the Course more seriously again. I got a lot of spiritual insights — probably more from the breathwork, to be honest, than from the psychedelic and MDMA combination, but I did get some insights there. And it’s like: love’s the only thing that matters. I’ve remembered it. I’m sorry — I forgot it for a while, and I’m never going to forget it again in this lifetime. That’s the most important thing. Love everyone all the time, no exceptions. It’s my dream. I need to forgive everyone in the dream. I need to forgive myself. I need to get the blocks to love rooted out and forgiven, so that I can be this loving being in this dream, and rejoin God forever in oneness and bliss.

Jordan: Beautiful. There’s something really cool about that story that I noticed from the Course’s perspective. Just a quick reflection: it’s so cool — like you mentioned, okay, you’re the CEO of Whole Foods, you’re kind of believing in the dream. And on the other hand you’re like, oh, I did this breathwork and these psychedelics and they really helped me. The Course is really clear that the stuff of the dream doesn’t really matter — it doesn’t have to either help you or hurt you. It’s how you use it and how you see it. So that’s a really cool example of how it could go either way.

We’re the Dreamer

[00:12:24]

[Chat question:] What’s the difference between A Course in Miracles and Buddhism?

John: Do you want me to try to address that?

Jordan: Yeah, let’s do it.

John: A Course in Miracles is not the only path to awakening, or to liberation, to love. I think Buddhism shows us — and Hinduism does too — that it’s maya. They embrace the idea that this is a dream. They don’t use that dream language, but it means the same thing: it’s not real; it is an illusion that we think is real. And Buddhism, through meditation, helps people get past that — past the ego, the belief in duality, the belief in separation. And Buddhism also teaches the practice of compassion. I think one thing that’s a little bit different about A Course in Miracles is its huge emphasis on—

Jordan: —on forgiveness. You froze for a second.

[John’s connection dropped for a few minutes. While waiting, Jordan continued solo:]

Jordan: I think what he was saying is the emphasis on forgiveness. The gist of A Course in Miracles, as John was saying, is: yeah, this whole thing’s a dream, and what’s really real is love, and anything that’s not love is not real. And then it’s always talking both at that high metaphysical level and at a real practical level — like, but you believe this stuff matters, so what do you do? And the answer in the Course is forgiveness. You look for your guilt and your attack and your judgment, and you forgive it. You realize it’s illusion.

Welcome back!

John: That might be because I’m having trouble using Chrome on my computer — that might have cut me off, so it may happen again. I tried to get back on Chrome this time, unsuccessfully, so here I am back on my normal browser.

Jordan: I’m glad we got you back. And if it goes out again, I’ll just give people Course in Miracles sidebars, now that we know what’s happening. You were talking about the difference — the emphasis on forgiveness, which is really key.

John: Yeah. Buddhism and A Course in Miracles are both paths that lead you back into the One. The Course has a greater emphasis on forgiveness and love, and Buddhism is about transcending the ego and going to the larger mind of the oneness. I think both of them can get you back into that unity. I do meditate every day, but the Course, for me, is the right path, because it’s not strictly just about meditation. It’s about action, in the way of practicing forgiveness with people we might be judging.

We tend to project our own guilt and fear out into the world, out into the dream. When I say life’s a dream, I try to get people to understand it this way: think about when you’re dreaming at night, Jordan. What’s very interesting about a dream at night — first of all, if you’ve ever had a lucid dream, you know that if you focus in that dream, it becomes just as real as where we are right now. Our eyes are closed, but we’re in this movie. We’re in it — a participant in this dream that seems to be as real as when we’re waking, particularly if you focus and it gets more lucid. But we’re the dreamer. And we have these other characters in the dream that seem to be independent of us. They seem to be acting independently of us — but how could they be independent if we’re the dreamer? If we’re dreaming them, they’re actually not independent. They are figures that we’re creating, that we’re making up — and we’re seeing them not necessarily as they are, but as our projection wants to see them in the dream, for whatever purposes might be there.

I just don’t think it’s any different when we so-called awake to reality. We’re just awakening to another dream, and the figures that we’re seeing are projections that we’re making out of our own guilt, our own fear, and our own judgments. It’s not to say that people aren’t real, but our perception of them is very distorted. The Course says if we could see people as they really are, we would see them as these incredibly beautiful beings, united in the One. That’s how they really are. But we are making up this dream and seeing them different than they really are.

So I find the dream metaphor to be very powerful. Once you grasp that when you’re dreaming, you are the dreamer and a character in the dream — and there are other characters in the dream that seem to be independent, but they’re clearly not, insofar as you’re dreaming them — to take that metaphor into our everyday life is to say, when things aren’t going well: the tendency is to want to be the victim, to judge other people as responsible for our problems. You can be just driving along and somebody cuts you off, and you make a judgment about them. But more often, we just judge other people because they’re different, because we think they ought to act differently — they don’t behave the way we think they should behave. And that sets us up to not take responsibility for our dream, because there’s someone else to blame. That traps us, and causes us to continue to basically reincarnate again and again and again and again, as we’re stuck in the dream.

The way out, according to A Course in Miracles, is to own the dream and see that it’s your projection — that you are projecting your own internal guilt and fear out into the world and attacking it there. By forgiving it, we come to let go of it, and we find that we, too, are forgiven. And then that allows love, which has been blocked, to emerge from deeper within us. And as we forgive, we experience more love and more peace in life. It becomes a much happier dream — I can tell you that much. And eventually we fully wake up. If not this lifetime, we’re still saving time — time’s an illusion ultimately, but we’re still saving the experience of time. We’re shortening the number of additional lives we have to go through to fully reunite with the One Being, God.

Choose Love Now. Choose Forgiveness Now. And Then Keep Choosing It

[00:21:28]

Jordan: Let’s talk about some of the ways you apply that — the practice of forgiveness, or some of your meditations that are informed by this thinking.

John: I think the real key is to be conscious of when we’re judging other people. For example: I’ve been a longtime vegan. I really care about animal suffering, and I’ve been in the natural whole foods business my entire adult life. I’ve had judgments about other people and what they eat. My God, how can you be eating the animals — how much they suffered for you to do that? Or, how can you put that poison in your body — don’t you know what it’s doing to you? So I have judgments about food, and I’ve been working on that one — to let it go, to not judge people for the way they eat.

But we judge people everywhere. Look how America’s divided politically — like two warring tribes, like it’s a civil war all over again. The Course talks about how that’s the ego’s game. The ego wants us to fight with each other. It wants us to judge each other, because that keeps us coming back. It keeps the ego — the sense of separateness — alive. We don’t see the other person as our brother. We don’t see them as one with us. We see them as worthy of being canceled, worthy of being killed, because they have the wrong beliefs — they’re not like us, they’re different. The Course is a path to let that stuff go, and to forgive others instead of judging and attacking them.

And forgiveness is a skill. As you become more conscious of your tendency to judge and project qualities onto other people, you can begin to let it go. It takes practice, though. We forget. But here’s the good news: the past doesn’t exist any longer. The past is done. The past only exists insofar as we bring it into the present moment. And I say that’s important because in the present moment, we can choose love. It doesn’t matter if we forgot in the last moment — in this next moment, right this second, this instant, we can choose love. We can choose to forgive. We can choose to stop judging. And then the past doesn’t exist, so we don’t have to feel guilty about it. It’s not real. It doesn’t exist. All that exists is now. So choose love now. Choose forgiveness now. And then keep choosing it. And if you forget, don’t beat yourself up and feel guilty, because that’s a trap. Instead, choose again. Choose again in the next moment. And as you keep choosing love, eventually that’s all you’re going to experience. Every moment, you’ll have a forgiving mind that just forgives instead of judges.

But you have to train your mind. The mind has been trained to judge, to feel guilty, to feel angry, to feel fearful — and that’s keeping us trapped. We have to retrain our mind. We have to change our mind. We have to remove the blocks to the presence of love, which is what we are. Forgiveness is a strategy, you might say, for clearing the deck so that love can fully emerge from the deepest part of our being. Because that’s who we really are.

Jordan: Isn’t that so important, that meta-practice? We are going to screw up — and I think the Course is so good at talking about this. You’re going to judge, you’re going to come from fear. The important thing is not that you messed up, but what you do with that right then and there. Do you love yourself? Do you forgive yourself? Do you have compassion? Or do you choose fear again and make yourself wrong?

John: Yeah — or you feel guilty because you’re trying to be perfect and then you messed up. Does that mean you have to slide all the way back down the mountain and start over again at zero? No. It just means you forgive yourself, and then in the next moment, you choose love. And when we forget, you don’t beat yourself up. You just say: ah, yes, now I remember — love’s the most important thing. And then you choose love in the next moment. And as you practice it, you get more skillful at it. Do you think it’s easy to learn to play the violin, or the guitar, or almost anything? You have to practice it. Why do we think getting to Heaven is going to be different — that we don’t have to practice to get more skillful at it?

Our Entire Life Is a Classroom

[00:26:03]

Jordan: Right. So can you walk us through how you practice it? You have a lot of responsibilities. You started a new company — there are people’s salaries on the line. You have this passion; you want things to change, you want the world to be better. How do you manage taking it seriously, and also — this is a dream?

John: I like the classroom metaphor: our entire life is a classroom, and we’re trying to learn important lessons here. As you act in the world, that’s your classroom. We can make choices in that classroom, in how we respond to situations. It’s a school. If you want to just go hide out on a mountaintop by yourself — fine, but you’re not learning the lessons that you need to learn. You have to see the dream that you’re inhabiting as this tremendous opportunity to heal — to let go, to heal yourself, to be healed through forgiveness. We get a chance to practice every day.

So you ask, how do you do it? Well, you do it. And how do I do it in my particular dream? For one thing, it’s important to be present when you’re with people. I’ve gotten more skillful at just relaxing and being fully present with someone. And in that moment, your fear isn’t there. Judgment’s not there. I’m just being present, listening to the person I’m with. And guess what? When I’m being present and listening to people, they show up in a much more loving way. But if I’m impatient, or people sense I’m unhappy or judging them, they respond to that. We’re responsible for our own dream, and it’s the greatest opportunity we have in life to move forward and deeper on our spiritual journey. It’s the classroom.

And here’s the thing: you’ll eventually graduate. It’s inevitable. We will all graduate; we will all go back into the One, because that’s the way it’s going to be. That’s a promise that’s been made. We can delay it through anger and hatred and judgment and fear and guilt, but we can’t prevent it. So we don’t have to beat ourselves up that we’re terrible people, that we’re never going to make it. Actually, you are. You’re one with the Christ. You’re one with God. You are this loving being, and you can’t help it. There’s no way you cannot eventually wake up. I just want to wake up faster now.

In some ways I’ve had such a full, amazing life. So many things have happened that have been wonderful for me. But as great as my life has been, it’s not really what I want. I want more love in my life. I want to love everyone. I want to be a light to other people. I want to help other people know what I’ve discovered — what I now know — which is: love is the deepest reality, and forgiveness is the path to realize greater love in our lives. And not to try to change anyone else. Many people listening to this probably think it’s ridiculous; others think it’s kind of interesting. It doesn’t matter. I’m not trying to change anybody else. It’s how I show up in the world that really matters — how open and loving my heart is, and how kind I am.

I Sort of Married the Guru and Didn’t Even Know It

[00:29:55]

John: I’m very fortunate. You know this — I’ve told you this story before — I really can’t follow gurus very well. I just have authority issues, as an entrepreneur. But my wife, Deborah, is simply the most conscious, loving person I’ve ever known. And I used to wonder, how come this woman’s with me? I’m not worthy of her. But I’ve been very fortunate that I sort of married the guru and didn’t even know it. She’s been so kind and loving and patient with me.

Jordan: And never judging you.

John: Never judging — never judging anyone. Deborah never judges anyone. She’s such a good example for me. I want to be a good example to other people in the dream. I want to love everyone. I want people to be happy and fulfilled. And the classroom is there — I get a chance to practice every day.

Jordan: Do you feel like you’re being that light now, even as we talk about it?

John: Absolutely. This moment, I am present. I am in my heart. I am manifesting love this very instant. But now, when you start thinking about it, you’ve just kind of stepped out of it. So you have to just be in that state.

Jordan: Yeah. I feel a lot of love, a big smile. I almost don’t have questions ready, because I’m just kind of present here with you.

John: Well, I’m feeling the same way about you, dude.

Jordan: Thank you. It’s a good feeling.

John: This could be the end of the conversation — we could just hang out and be warm and lovey.

Jordan: Exactly. We’ll just sit in the eye gaze on the internet together. I mean, we could talk about how much we love Deborah. When you said just love everyone all the time, always — that’s a Deborah quote, right?

That’s the Ultimate Win-Win-Win

[00:31:50]

John: Well, Deborah’s quote is — in fact, I’ll make a little commercial. I did a TED Talk a little less than a year ago, and they just posted it a few weeks ago, and it’s already had 250,000 views. It’s about win-win-win — finding the win-win-win in life and business — and it’s only 10 minutes long. I encourage people to go to TED, or you can probably find it on YouTube as well.

Anyway, I was talking about it with Deborah — I was giving the win-win-win philosophy — and she starts laughing. She says, John, it’s so much simpler than you’re making it out to be. You’re talking about who’s winning this game — she’s winning and you’re winning and we’re all winning. Why don’t you just love everyone all the time? And I thought about it, and I said: that’s the ultimate win-win-win — loving everyone all the time. And then I thought about it a little bit more, and I added no exceptions. Because everyone wants to have an exception. I want to love everyone all the time — except I don’t want to love President Trump, he’s horrible. Or I don’t want to love Adolf Hitler, or I don’t want to love somebody I think is a bad person.

And the Course is very clear about it. Basically: forgive everyone. Forgive the world. It’s your dream. That’s something I tell myself all the time when I’m tempted to judge someone: hey, John, it’s your dream. Forgive this person.

Now, forgiving them doesn’t mean you tolerate bad behavior, or that people can just do terrible things. You want to stay in that loving heart space — not full of anger and hate and judgment — but you would want to do what’s appropriate in that situation, to not allow more harm to happen. Forgiveness does not mean passivity. It doesn’t mean you ignore terrible parts of your dream. It simply means that you don’t buy into it and go into that space of judgment and hatred and anger — you stay in that loving place of your heart while you practice forgiveness, and do what would be appropriate in that situation to prevent other harm from occurring to other people. There’s an art to it.

It’s Your Dream

[00:34:09]

Jordan: Do you have any examples you can give of that — staying in that loving space while firing someone, or holding an intense boundary? You may not have any you can give, since you’re somewhat of a public figure.

John: I’ll tell you a funny story that just happened over this weekend. One of the Course in Miracles people came down from the Bay Area to tour Love.life, and she brought her wife with her, who was not a student of the Course. We’re having a wonderful dinner conversation. We’re talking about love; I heard the story of their relationship, how they fell in love and got married — they’ve been together for decades now. And as we’re getting near the end of the dinner, she asked me, What are you going to do — are you going to watch the Super Bowl tomorrow? This was just a few days ago. And I said, Yeah, I’m going to go over to my friend’s house and watch the Super Bowl. But if it’s not a good game, I think we’re going to go out. My friend Annie — I’m godfather to her son Henry, and good friends with her husband as well — I think Annie and I are going to leave the kids with James and go see a movie.

And they said, Well, what movie are you going to see? I said, Well, Annie wants to see that movie about Melania Trump. And I remember Kathleen just looked at me and said, What? What did you say? I said, Well, I think we’re going to go see — I like documentaries, and apparently it’s about Melania Trump. She said, Why would you want to see that? And I said, Well, you know, she wants to see it. And then my friend Laura, trying to pacify the situation, said, We shouldn’t talk about politics. And I said, Absolutely — we should not talk about politics. Politics is a way people separate from each other. And I just said, I like watching documentaries. I think it’s a documentary about her life, and I think that might be interesting.

So we did go see the movie. It wasn’t about her life at all. It was one day of Melania’s life, which was Trump’s second inauguration. And it was boring. I fell asleep during the movie. I don’t really care what kind of hat she wears, or what clothes she’s changing into, or how many different balls they went to. But the thing that was fascinating about the movie — and one reason I wanted to see it — is that on Rotten Tomatoes, the critics gave it like an 8% approval rating, and the audience gave it 99%. I thought, this has got to be an interesting movie with that kind of schism. They say that’s the highest schism ever recorded for a movie that’s got a lot of votes. And it wasn’t, you know, demonic in some Hitlerian way. It was just boring for me, because I don’t really care about pomp and ritual and circumstance — they don’t mean anything to me. So I got a good 30-to-45-minute nap in, and Annie told me I didn’t miss anything. So I’m not recommending the movie.

But the point I’m making is: that’s a great example of how people can quickly move into anger and judgment. We’re having this wonderful conversation, and all of a sudden I feel like — ooh, it’s not okay, it’s not safe for me to say I was going to see this movie, because I felt immediate judgment. Then I reminded myself: hey, it’s my movie, it’s my dream. I manifested this reaction to see if it was going to trigger me. And I did not get triggered. I actually stayed in my heart, and made a joke about it, and she relaxed. And later on I reported the good news: the movie’s boring, I didn’t enjoy it. So that’s top of mind, because it just happened a few days ago.

I’ll give you another example, though. The guy that we had running our club at Love.life — we decided to eliminate his position; we wanted to go a different direction. So I met with him — his last day had already passed, January 31st was his last day — and we went to a Starbucks and had a really great 45-minute conversation. I just was thankful to him. I thanked him: Michael, I’m so grateful for everything you did for us. We wouldn’t be where we are today without you. You worked extremely hard. And I said, if you want to give me as a reference, I’m going to give a really great reference for you — because I saw all the beautiful things about him. I also saw where it wasn’t really a good fit for us with him.

So you can stay in your heart and love someone while you do what’s the appropriate thing to do, given the circumstances. I think that confuses people. They think if you’re going to be in this loving place — you’re not judging — then you’re basically condoning, you’re approving of everything someone does, and therefore you’ve given away your agency, you’ve given away your power. It doesn’t have to be that way. This is about keeping your heart in the present moment, in love, and being very loving to people, even if you’re firing them. And Michael — you know, we did push him out, but he’s a wonderful human being and he did a lot of good work for us. I focused on all the beautiful things he did, rather than focusing on why we thought we needed to move on.

Jordan: Right. The key shift is where you come from and how you see the situation — not what any given situation is.

John: Exactly. Well said.

That’s an Old Trick of the Ego

[00:40:02]

Jordan: And I love that, because one of the many traps people fall into — like with that friend and the movie — is you suddenly start to separate yourself from them and judge them for judging you.

John: Yes. That’s an old trick of the ego. You judge because you’re being judged, and you feel perfectly righteous about it, because the judgment of me is so unfair — I didn’t do anything to deserve that judgment.

Jordan: I just wanted to see a movie.

John: I want to see a movie — relax, chill out, you go see the movies you want to see. But that didn’t happen. I did not get triggered. I stayed there, grounded with her, in my heart, changed the subject, and made a joke about it so she could relax. I think that’s a good example. And here’s the good news: if you get triggered — remember what we were talking about before — if you get triggered and you get angry, you get judgy, well, when you become conscious of it, then you can choose again. Even if I had been triggered, I could have caught myself and said, Hey, I want to apologize, because I just judged you and I’m really sorry. I shouldn’t have judged you. Please forgive me. But in fact, I didn’t judge her — at least I wasn’t conscious of doing so. I was actually kind of amused by the situation, because I could see her just change — like, what? What?! And I was like, whoa, she’s really triggered. I just became aware of it, and I did everything I could to put her back at peace again.

Jordan: Right. Because you’re like: this is my dream. I know what it’s like — I’ve gotten triggered.

John: Absolutely.

Jordan: As a parent, me personally, I get triggered at the silliest things — I’m just suddenly so upset, or separating, or judging. And then, exactly what you’re saying: I can make myself wrong for that, or I can say, oh, let me actually forgive myself — and then I go and apologize. And maybe there’s still a boundary to be held. Maybe we still have to make an appointment on time or something. But we’re coming from a totally different place.

John: Yeah. Forgiveness is a state of mind. It’s something you can practice — you can just start practicing it. And whenever you find yourself judging someone, just substitute: I forgive you. I’m so sorry — I forgive you. And I forgive myself for having a dream where you show up this way. Because you’re showing up this way because you’re trying to teach me something here. So thank you. Thank you. And what’s the lesson for me to learn here? That’s why the classroom metaphor is a powerful one. What’s the lesson I’m trying to learn here? Because I projected it out there so that it can teach me — so it can help me be more kind and loving and forgiving.

Jordan: And that kind of mental motion is what keeps you from being a victim of the world as well. You’re like: oh, right, I created this. Not in a way that I need to judge myself either, but in a way that I can learn from, so that I can grow.

John: Yes. I’m creating this so I can heal on it. This is the mind projecting it outward, giving me the opportunity to practice forgiveness — so I can let this lesson go and heal on it, so I don’t have to have it again. We repeat the lessons over and over and over again until we get it. But you don’t get to skip lessons. You have to learn the lesson. It’d be nice if we could just transcend it all, right? Just go into this blissful, cosmic state, and we wouldn’t have to do any of this forgiveness work. It’d be a lot easier. However, we have to do the forgiveness work. At least that’s the way the Course teaches it, and I’ve found it to be true for me.

Jordan: A really sweet comment:

[Chat comment:] This is fabulous. So glad I joined today — for advice at work, and raising my 17-year-old hormonal daughter.

John: What a great opportunity you’ve given yourself, having a 17-year-old hormonal daughter who’s going to keep you on your toes, right? And you can remember when you were 17. Woo.

Jordan: And the ways that I’ve acted like I was 17 today — and 20 minutes ago.

The Forgiveness Lessons Are About Letting Go

[00:44:10]

Jordan: There’s something this is reminding me of. Seeing the world as a classroom — I think sometimes people in spirituality in general, and definitely in A Course in Miracles, think this means it’s like the via negativa: we’ve got to get rid of everything in the world. One of the things that’s so cool about The Disappearance of the Universe is it talks about sex and death and just being able to enjoy life and have a happy dream.

John: Yeah. The Course teaches that the forgiveness lessons are not really about sacrifice. I think some people confuse love and sacrifice, like they’re synonyms. They’re absolutely not. Sacrifice is not loving. Sacrificing is not what we’re called to do. Instead, the Course has incredible benefits in this lifetime that we’re having, because it brings us more harmony. It brings us more peace. It brings us more love and joy into our lives, and we begin to experience those on a regular basis. We become happier. The dream itself becomes happier — even though the classroom can get really intense at times. Overall, as we learn and as we let go of our judgments, the dream we’re living becomes a much happier dream, with more love in it. You begin to attract more loving people into your life. You have fewer angry, hateful people in the dream as you forgive.

This is the thing I’ve really noticed in the last year or so: the people that I was interacting with — that I continue to interact with — have become so much more loving toward me. It’s like the universe is a mirror, and it mirrors back to us exactly. We’re creating the dream. So as we allow more love to be expressed, more love comes back our way. It’s the greatest benefit that we will experience in the illusion of having a body and being alive and separate: more peace, more love, more compassion, more kindness. As we give those things out to other people, they are given back to us. It’s totally reciprocated. And by the way — if people are treating you like crap, well, you’ve got to ask: how are you treating them?

Jordan: Yeah, I feel it, and I agree. It’s been really amazing. There are times where I’ll encounter somebody who’s just so loving with me, and then in another situation I’ll see them interact with somebody else, and they show up differently with someone else. So it’s a really clear sign of that reflective quality of the universe.

John: I’ve noticed it for many years, because of the way people would interact with me versus the way they’d interact with my wife. I tell this story from many years ago. I actually have three godsons, and this is godson number one — he’s now 17 years old, named Kai. Kai and I have a good relationship. But I remember, we were going to take a trip with them, and they showed up at our house in Austin, because we were going to fly together the next day. Kai gets out first and runs up to the door. I answer the door. I said, Hey, Kai! And he says, Where’s Deborah? I said, She’s here. Hello! Welcome! And he said, Where’s Deborah? He was so happy when he saw Deborah, and gave her a big hug. And I thought: what does this mean? What’s my lesson here? My lesson: Kai loves Deborah so much because Deborah loves Kai so much, and he knows it.

Jordan: Yeah.

John: I’m happy to say that as I’ve become more loving to Kai, he’s glad to see me now too. In fact, I heard a couple of weeks ago, when I was with his parents — they said, Kai was telling us about the amazing conversation he had with you recently, and how well you listened to him. You were an adult giving him advice, but you treated him completely as an equal. He felt very loved and appreciated by you.

Jordan: That’s a great example. Then you got that back from them.

John: Yes, exactly.

Whole Foods Is Just a Dream. It’s Been a Pretty Happy Dream

[00:48:55]

Jordan: Do you think this influenced Whole Foods, and the way that you led, and what people—

John: Sure. Absolutely, of course it did. Remember, I’ve been on this path. I’d say my last two or three years at Whole Foods — my very last year, I’d already been through these guided spiritual journeys, I’d reawakened to deeper study of the Course. My successor was picked, I’d already announced I was leaving, and I spent that whole last year — I kind of went on a grand tour. I visited as many stores as I could, and I just thanked everybody for what they’d done, and what a privilege it had been to work with them. And I got so much love back from people. I was amazed. I was just so grateful, because so many people came up and told me their stories — how Whole Foods had changed their life. We had a lot of immigrants who had come in and worked at Whole Foods, and they still work there 30 or 40 years later. They had no money, and now they own one house and two rental properties, and their kids went through college, and they were just so grateful to Whole Foods. And then they were grateful to me as well. That last year was amazing. I just wish everyone could have such a retirement as I had when I left Whole Foods.

Of course, it’s been hard now that I’m gone, because it’s changed a lot. That’s part of the lesson for me. When people come up to complain to me about things they don’t like about Whole Foods any longer, I always say: yeah, I gave 44 years. It’s not my problem any longer. I can’t help you any longer. But thank you — good luck to you.

Jordan: Aw. There’s some sadness there, but then that last year, that is—

John: It’s just a dream. Whole Foods is just a dream. It’s been a pretty happy dream. I’m grateful that I had it, and I learned the lessons I needed to learn from it. And now I’m doing other stuff.

Jordan: Right. And then it’s very literally in the title of the new company: Love.life.

John: Love.life. That’s not accidental.

Jordan: Teach only love, for that is what you are.

John: Yeah. I thought that would be a little too far out in the dream, but it’s a pretty good quote. Teach Only Love — that could be the name of the business.

Jordan: Yeah, that might work. I think so.

My Daughter, You Are Forgiven. Go and Sin No More

[00:51:17]

Jordan: You mentioned earlier that one of the forgiveness lessons you’re working on right now is with people’s different diets and the way people eat.

John: Well, I’ve made a lot of progress on that one, but yes. I became aware of it in the last year — I made quick judgments about people. Based on how they ate, I made judgments about how conscious they were.

Jordan: This is a great example — to kind of walk through the process. So now you’re catching it. What does it look like?

John: Well, for one thing — and this helps me — a lot of times people apologize to me for what they’re eating. I’m like a priest where people confess their dietary sins. And they want my forgiveness. So I usually make a joke of it: I put my hand on their head and say, My daughter, you are forgiven. Go and sin no more, and then we laugh. But I’m talking about the little judgments I would make that I wouldn’t necessarily share with anybody. So now, whenever I catch myself judging someone for what they eat, I just substitute: I forgive you. And I forgive myself for having that judgment of you.

Jordan: The thing I love about that: the Course is so complex and rich psychologically, and you can go into all the depth. But this is a great example where it’s very practical. You don’t have to figure it all out and analyze it. You can just substitute that fear for love. I forgive you; I forgive myself. Just keep it simple.

John: I mean, I used to judge my friends if they didn’t shop at Whole Foods. We’re friends — you’re not even shopping at my store? You’ve got all this Trader Joe’s stuff here? Or H-E-B? You’ve got to be kidding. So I’ve let all that go too.

Jordan: Right. Because you’re like, everyone’s got their own journey.

John: Everybody has their own journey, and we’re not here to change anybody else’s mind. We’re here to change our own mind. And then, of course, we’re leading by example. As we share love, it helps other people. One of my good friends just sent me an email — yesterday or the day before; I haven’t responded yet — saying how much he loves me, and how much he appreciates all the things I’m doing, and my generosity and kindness. And then he asked the question I was hoping he’d ask. He says, How are you doing that? And that’s why I haven’t answered him yet — because I’m going to ask him: can I send you a couple of books?

The Title of the Book Says It All

[00:54:12]

John: I think The Disappearance of the Universe is not the best starter book. I actually think Gerald Jampolsky’s book Love Is Letting Go of Fear is the very best introduction to A Course in Miracles, because it’s so easy to read. It’s so simple, it’s so useful for people. Just this idea that love is letting go of fear — the title of the book says it all. The book came out 40-plus years ago, and it holds up really well. It’s still very powerful, so it’s a great introduction for people. Anybody listening who’s interested in looking at A Course in Miracles: take a look at Love Is Letting Go of Fear, by Gerald Jampolsky. It’s a very simple book to read — you can read it in a couple of hours at the most — and it’ll probably have a lasting effect on you. Anybody I’ve ever given that book to comes back and says, That book’s incredible. Why didn’t I know about this book before?

Jordan: That’s great — it’s great to have another example. Because The Disappearance of the Universe — the people that love it, love it, and a lot of people really don’t like it, and they bounce off.

John: Well, it’s more metaphysical, right? It gets into the complexity of the dream and whatnot. So it’s for people who are a little bit more advanced, I think, than just a beginner. Because otherwise it’s going to seem like — what do you mean the universe isn’t real? How ridiculous is that? That’s absurd. And they put the book down at that point. Whereas Love Is Letting Go of Fear is just about how, as we practice forgiveness and love and not judging people, how much better our life becomes, how much happier we are. So it’s eminently practical.

Jordan: Right. And you don’t have to change anyone else — it’s just you.

John: You don’t have to change anyone else. Just change the way you think, and the way you show up in the world. Everything changes around you as you do that. You’re not changing anyone — they’re changing themselves — but you’re actually helping, by just setting this example.

Jordan: That friend — how long have you guys been friends, before they asked?

John: Probably about 25 years now.

Jordan: That’s incredible. I can imagine, for people listening to this — for me, there are friends who, maybe I meet and make a friend today, or this year, and it may take 25 years before they start to show this love and say—

John: Well, maybe it took me 25 years before I was worthy of his response.

Jordan: I like that. Beautiful.

John: It wasn’t his problem. I don’t have to judge him for not thinking I was a cool guy. I had to get cooler, so to speak — I had to get more loving — before Kai thought his godfather was pretty cool, and before my friend Alex thought, What are you doing? I want to be more like you.

Jordan: Yeah. That’s so beautiful — and beautiful for him to shower you with that love, and open up that way.

John: Yeah. You know, he’s an atheist, so I’ve got to pick my books carefully here.

See You on the Other Side

[00:57:20]

Jordan: This is such a joy. We could keep going, and we’re nearing the end of the hour. Any closing thoughts, ideas, quotes?

John: I would just say: I wish, for everybody that’s listening to this — we are all brothers and sisters in the One. And may your journey to peace and love be a good journey. See you on the other side.

Jordan: Amen. Thank you so much, John.

John: Thank you, Jordan. Thanks for having me on. I love you, buddy.

Jordan: I love you too.

John: Thanks for all that you’re doing. You’ve made a difference in my life, and I know you’re making a difference in lots of people’s lives, and we’re all grateful to you. Thank you.

Jordan: Very, very welcome. It’s touching, so much.

John: Okay. I’ll see you soon.

Jordan: See you soon. Be in touch.

Show Notes & References

Books

A Course in Miracles — Helen Schucman (scribed 1965–1972, published 1976). The central text of the conversation. John describes it as a channeling from Jesus to help us to awaken to who we really are — a non-dualistic system of oneness whose core practice is forgiveness. Jordan also quotes the Course line Teach only love, for that is what you are.

The Disappearance of the Universe: Straight Talk about Illusions, Past Lives, Religion, Sex, Politics, and the Miracles of Forgiveness — Gary R. Renard (2003; Hay House edition 2004). The book that took John’s Course studies to another level in recent years. Both agree it is not a starter book — the people that love it, love it, and a lot of people really don’t like it.

Love Is Letting Go of Fear — Gerald G. Jampolsky, MD (1979, Celestial Arts). John’s pick for the very best introduction to A Course in Miracles — readable in a couple of hours, and it’ll probably have a lasting effect on you.

People

John Mackey — Co-founder of Whole Foods Market, where he was CEO for 44 years, and co-founder of Love.life, a health and wellness club in El Segundo, CA combining medical care, nutrition, fitness, recovery, pickleball, and a cafe. Co-founder of the Conscious Capitalism movement.

Jordan Myska Allen — Founder & CEO of UpTrust; founder of The Relateful Company.

Gerald Jampolsky (1925–2020) — Psychiatrist, founder of the first Center for Attitudinal Healing, and author of Love Is Letting Go of Fear, one of the earliest and most popular books inspired by A Course in Miracles.

Gary R. Renard — Author of The Disappearance of the Universe (referenced by book title only in the conversation).

Stanislav Grof — Psychiatrist and pioneer of consciousness research; co-creator (with Christina Grof) of Holotropic Breathwork, the intensive breathing practice John describes doing in three-hour-plus sessions.

Deborah Morin — John’s wife, whom he calls simply the most conscious, loving person I’ve ever known — the source of love everyone all the time, to which John added no exceptions.

Key Concepts & Media Referenced

The problem of evil — The classic theological question that drove John from evangelical Christianity (the Navigators) to atheism, and whose resolution in the Course — God would never create a world like this; you are in a dream — made him a lifelong student.

John Mackey’s TED Talk — Described in conversation as win-win-win — finding the win-win-win in life and business. Published by TED as The Trap of Win-Lose Thinking (and How to Escape It) (2025), about 10 minutes long. Available on TED and YouTube.

Melania (2026) — The Brett Ratner documentary about Melania Trump, released by Amazon MGM Studios in January 2026, covering the days around the second Trump inauguration. It holds the largest critic–audience gap in Rotten Tomatoes history (single-digit critics score vs. 99% audience score), the schism that made John curious enough to watch.

MDMA — John notes he first took it when it was still legal, back in 1984; MDMA was placed on Schedule I in the US in 1985.

Maya — The Hindu and Buddhist concept of the world as illusion, which John connects to the Course’s dream language.

UpTrust is a trust infrastructure platform for the internet. Find it at uptrusting.com.